I was invited to comment on a blog by a Dee Graf (Formerly Deeane Baker, daughter of Pastor Don Baker) whom I knew from Calvary Chapel, Greenacre, Sydney in the 1970s ( a Foursquare Pentecostal Church). This is a copy of some of the comments made on that blog RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION

My blog name is Moi.

Comments edited for space.

My added comments in *[ ...]


Moi said...
Dee wrote:

> Amanda Lohrey in her book rants that churched Christians should have nothing to do with
> politics.

An absurd comment for sure! However, the problem is that many churches expect Christians to be ONLY conservative in political conviction. Christians have as diverse political views as the rest of society. No political party is perfect. There are Christian politicians in all political parties. For the individual Christian one must make a decision based on one's faith that best represents one's priorities. For example, I applaud the Federal Liberal Party for it's economic management but at the same time I deplore their treatment of the poor, unemployed and disadvantaged. (Read OT prophets like Amos.) A vote by a Christian for a party is not usually a blanket approval of all their policies.

May 6, 2007 6:36 PM

Dee said...

... I have other issues with the so-called Christian Left. Marxism is based on atheism at its core and is a philosophy which is, I believe, cursed by God. It can never produce good fruit and it has always produced at best a godless society ....

May 6, 2007 8:19 PM


Dee said...

.... If you want to follow the philosophies of man, criticisms of 'fundamentalism', philosophies etc. your religion is not the uncompromising one which Christ followed and represents. Christ was not and is not politically correct. Philosophies and thoughts of humans are called 'humanism' and the teachings of Christ, including the non PC ones are called Christianity. It's one or the other.If you pick and choose what you will believe of the Bible, you might as well discount it all. I've also heard academics trying to pick holes in the Bible. ...

Sometimes when you've been through the brainwashing of the academic system (I'm not sure where you're from but certainly here in Australia), it's a soul-destroying, faith-destroying experience unless you make a decision to stand firm in what you believe.
May 8, 2007 12:05 AM

Moi said...

.... You asked me to comment on your blog so I am commenting as kindly as I can on some basic presuppositions which others will think about but maybe not write to you about.

> If you want to follow the philosophies of man, criticisms of 'fundamentalism', philosophies etc. > your religion is not the uncompromising one which Christ followed and represents.

My major in my first degree was philosophy. Fundamentalism and conservatism are BOTH philosophies which can be traced back to particular ancient philosophers. Philosophy used to be the handmaid to theology and comes from the Greek words philo (love) & sophia (wisdom).Read Os Guinness' "Fit Bodies, Fat Minds: Why evangelicals don't think and what to do about it" ....

It's called "critical reflection" which is crucial part of the practice of every educator and philosopher such as myself. God expected us to use our God given minds. To this end scholarship cannot be ignored. ....

> I've also heard academics trying to pick holes in the Bible.

It isn't about picking holes in the Bible but about finding truth NO MATTER WHAT THE COST. All truth is God's truth. All that is not true is not of God - even if it happens to be in the Bible.


> Sometimes when you've been through the brainwashing of the academic system

I survived the brainwashing of pentecostal churches and lived to tell the tale. Some of my other pente friends from that time have not been so lucky - some turning atheist, some committing suicide, some turning to alcohol and drug dependence, one in prison for murdering his wife after falsely believing he was healed and coming off his bi-polar medication. My reading of Francis Schaeffer and my study of the Bible as ancient history at uni paved the way for my growth. Growth in truth is what it is all about. Read James W Fowler (psychologist) ... Stages of Faith ...

May 8, 2007 8:42 PM


Moi said...

> Christian students who did not, by their actions, wish to be aligning themselves with the
> promotion of homosexuality, wore T-shirts which expressed their own opinion based on
> verses from the Bible. As a result, they have been suspended from school to be made
> an example of.

My brother, Dr Brett Tindall, died of AIDS related illness in 1994. He was a researcher with the Sydney AIDS Team and WHO's representative for the Asia-Pacific region amongst many other things. Read Justice Michael Kirby's comments about him at
"Management of the HIV Infected Patient - Dedication to Brett Tindall"

My brother was also gay.The issue in this news report is really a two edged sword. If Christians can protest against homosexuals then homosexuals can also protest against Christians. What right is given to one group must also be given to the other in a fair democratic society. Homosexuals are using the same tactics that Christians have used to silence them.
I am a bit puzzled at which bible verses Christians could use to state that homosexuality (BOTH gay and lesbian) is a sin. Jesus said nothing about the issue.One of the greatest sins at Sodom was Lot offering his virgin daughter to a mob of homosexual (?)men to rape(!). Do homosexual men rape women????? I don't think so!!!! (Yet God spared Lot.)The Sodom story does not give proof of God's wrath against homosexuality. Look up Sodom in a concordance. None of the verses containing the word Sodom mention homosexuality. ....

How many Christians have opened up AIDS hospices for the victims of AIDS which include children and babies and those infected by needle-stock injuries (including doctors, nurses and dentists)????

While studying speech therapy (before he entered medicine) my brother took me to two groups at his campus.

The first was a Christian group where he had made a few friends. (his gay lovers included an Anglican priest and a Russioan Orthodox priest). The Christian group were singing "Noah , he built him an arky warky" ... repeatedly. They also quoted bible verses without any clue to the context. They werte poorly read in anything of contemporary worth.

The second group was a gay and lesbian group where the people were talkinmg about art, philosophy, politics and religion. They were all very well read.

On the way home my brother asked me which group I would prefer to spend my time with.There was no hesitation. I answered that, as a Christian, I would prefer to go to the gay and lesbian group. The other group bored me silly.

Even while I was a Christian School Principal my brother often took me to gay bars to eat. I met most of his friends - some of whom were Christians.

I'm a bit puzzled about homophobia. Dorothy L Sayers said that the church seemed more interested in bedrooms than boardrooms - and there is more sin done in boardrooms than bedrooms.

I wish I knew local Christians who were as well read as most gays and lesbians.Gays and lesbians often read the Bible but few Christians have ever read major gay philosophers such as Foucault (I have!). Maybe Christians should follow the example of Phiilip Yancey who names Henri Nouwen, a gay priest who died from AIDS related illness, as someone who has inspired him. Read Philip Yancey "Soul Survivor: How My Faith Survived The Church" (Hodder and Stoughton: 2001) Explore this theme in "The Sins Of Scriptuire: Exposing the Bible's texts of hate to reveal the God of love" by John Shelby Spong (Harper Collins: 2005)

May 8, 2007 11:44 PM

Dee said...

.... Being well-read means absolutely zilch!... If you read nothing but garbage, it's all for nought.
... I would suggest you lay aside all the stuff you've imbibed over the years and pick up your Bible and read it with simplicity and you might see the things that years of humanistic teaching have obscured from you.

May 9, 2007 1:05 AM

Moi said...

... If we are to use the Bible then we must use it intelligently.

> It is clear that there truly are, as you said, no moral absolutes in your universe

As a trained Christian philospher my moral absolute is God not the fallible man-made Bible (sexism intended). All truth is God's truth.To quote another Christian philosopher ....


From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New York:1951]

p. 6 " ... as good almost kill a good man as kill a good book: who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were, in the eye."

p. 14 " ... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not possibly be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who thought it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three Greek poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1 Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides)

p. 16 "'To the pure all things are pure;' not only meat and drinks, but all kind of knowledge whether good or evil; the knowledge cannot defile, nor consequently the books, if the will and conscience be not defiled."

p. 17 "Solomon informs us that much reading is a weariness to the flesh, but neither he nor other inspired author tells us that such or such reading is unlawful: yet certainly had God thought good to limit us herein, it had been much more expedient to have told us what was unlawful than what was wearisome."

p. 21 " ... a wise man will make better use of an idle pamphlet than a fool will do of sacred Scripture."

p. 25 "Banish all objects of lust, shut up all youth into the severest discipline that can be exercised in any hermitage, ye cannot make them chaste that came not thither so ..."

p. 37 "Any man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believes things only because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes his heresy. There is not any burden that some would gladlier post off to another, than the charge and care of their religion."

p.51 "And though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth to be the worse in a free and open encounter? Her confuting is the best and surest suppressing."

Think about it.I'm just posing possibilities.

May 9, 2007 6:49 PM

Dee said...

... Actually if you know me well, you will find out that I was the black sheep of the family who got involved in everything and anything, questioned absolutely everything I believed and finally destroyed a mountain of books that I had once read and found to be false. Therefore I don't agree with the first point that your philosopher makes that to destroy a book is to destroy reason as the reason of man (as you pointed out, a pastor at times) is flawed and therefore useless. I asked God to reveal to me the truth and I went to the only infallible book, the Bible. If you believe that the Bible is fallible, you effectively have nothing left and are living in a moral relativist nightmare where there are no rights or wrongs only opinions. One definition of Hell. ... I think, for your own faith and salvation, it's important for you to acknowledge the hard truths of God's word and come to a point where you can embrace them. ...
I'm more of a gutter rat type fighter than an exegetical theologian and I'm sure you must be getting frustrated with my answers which come from a different kind of mindset to yours.

May 9, 2007 7:17 PM

Moi said...

> you effectively have nothing left

I have God left. God is not the Bible. The Bible is not God. God is greater than the Bible.

> and are living in a moral relativist nightmare where there are no rights or wrongs only
> opinions.

I am not a relativist or a "secular humanist". All that is from God is true and correct. I'm a Christian.

I have plenty of friends with similar views as yours. That doesn't bother me. Friends don't have to be clones of each other. ...

May 9, 2007 11:58 PM

Dee said...

.... I'm glad that you are at least able to debate these issues (unlike many Leftists that I've come across) as I say what I think and can't hold back to avoid offense.

May 10, 2007 12:49 AM


Moi said...

Read up on the Toldpuddle Martyrs was the beginning of unionism.This union, The Friendly Society of Agricultural Labourers, was led by George Loveless, a Methodist local preacher. They refused to work for less than 10 shillings a week, although by this time wages had been reduced to seven shillings and were due to be set at 6 shillings a week. George Loveless wrote after their trial: "God is our guide! from field, from wave, From plough, from anvil, and from loom; We come, our country's rights to save, And speak a tyrant faction's doom: We raise the watch-word liberty; We will, we will, we will be free!"Some of them were transported to Morpeth, 5 minutes from where I live.Unionism is not anti-Christian per se.Many Christian authors and poets have railed against the injustices of the rich against poor in the industrial revolution ... and in today's society.

May 9, 2007 12:09 AM

Dee said...

Moi, many things may have had a raison d'etre when they were founded and morphed into something quite different later. Such is the case with the Unions movement. There were some sincere people in the early days of the Labor Party until it was infiltrated by communists. ...
Both the Labor Party and the Unions have been riddled with the cancer of hard-core socialist/communist/marxist ideology which is a flawed and evil ideology based on atheism. (The pivotal position of atheism in Marxism is asserted by many prominent Marxists). In actuality, the totalitarianism of Socialist/Marxist governance has nothing at all to do with the teachings of the Bible. God commands His people to help the poor, not for the Government to issue handouts. Nowhere does God command governments to do any such thing. In addition, enforced Socialism/Marxism requires more and more government intervention and moves towards totalitarianism because humanity instinctively knows it's bad and wrong. Look at the failed experiments of every single socialist state in existence and you'll see the utter wrongness, destructiveness and freedom-restrictiveness of this system.

May 9, 2007 12:49 AM


Moi said...

> It coincides with the rise of the anti-Christ spirit in the world as can be seen in the
> rising opposition against the Christian moral stance in Western countries,

Many Christians have rebelled against the endeavoured fundamentalist imposition of petty rules as the "word of God" and "moral absolutes" when they are neither. Some Christians have been banned by their fellow Christian fundamentalist brothers and sisters who call them "anti-Christ". Need I mention Larry Norman? (Reminds me of the Reformation wars between Catholics and Protestants where both called the other anti-Christ".)I have a friend who is a Baptist mionister whose children's book about Jesus travelling through time and space to help well known Chriostians throughout the ages was BANNED in a Christian school because it mentionewd a crystal set (old time radio) and the poorly read fundamentalists in the school thought he was a new ager! We often have a chuckle about it.Globalism has it's good side (interaction with others, help to developing countries) and bad side (lack of national industries and reliance on other countries for basic goods.) It is not evil per se. It is HOW it is used that brings in the moral factor. It may be used for good or for evil. The globalism of the Roman Empire helped to spread Christianity in the initial years and also under Constantine.Think about it. ...

May 9, 2007 7:26 PM

Dee said...

.... OF course in a Leftist dominated education system you'll hear that argued out the yin-yang and if you are studying under this hegemony, you had better toe the line if you want to get a passing mark on your essays. .... Reading that trash is how you end up off the rails. The Bible tells us to guard our hearts for from them springs the wellspring of life. Reading every piece of garbage out there just so you can say you are well-read is one sure way of brainwashing and poisoning your own perspective. .... Thank God I've had a grounding in Bible believing Christianity rather than that of some of today's mainline churches which have spun so far out into space with their ideas that anything goes. What's the point of having a church? Just to take passages out of the Bible, analyze them to death, perform exegesis (as one performs an autopsy dissecting every minute detail and then shoving it back willy-nilly and sewing the corpse back up), and then stand up with a new clever argument that has nothing to do with the simple truths that Christians in countries like China, where they don't have access to overly 'educated' and pompous rhetoric, are following and giving their lives for (as the early Christians would have done).I say again, "I resolved to know nothing but Christ and Christ crucified" ....

May 9, 2007 7:55 PM

Moi said...

> The Bible tells us to guard our > hearts for from them springs the wellspring of life.

Think about the Areopagitica.

A Christian doesn't have to leave their brain in neutral.

May 9, 2007 8:39 PM

Dee said...

A Christian doesn't have to leave their brain in neutral.No we don't, which is why I question everything that the ruling Left hegemony demands that I must believe. I have a mind of my own and I refuse to turn into a neo-Marxist clone.

May 9, 2007 9:58 PM

Moi said...

Dee wrote:

>>A Christian doesn't have to leave their brain in neutral.
>No we don't, which is why I question everything that the ruling Left hegemony demands that >I must believe.

But do you question everything that the ruling RIGHT hegemony demands that you should believe?It goes BOTH ways.I read a story where the person had heard someone say that they were a fundamnentalist. The question given was then: "What are you a fundamntalist AGAINST?"Fundamentalism, like the USA, MUST have an enemy. If there is not an enemy then they'll invent one.The problem is not whether someone is politically Left or Right (I've met Christians I have admired on all sides of the spectrum) but is it TRUE or FALSE?All sides of politics have their own propaganda.The other item is the demonstration of love. Francis Schaeffer called it "the mark of the Christian". Do the Right love the Left? (and vice versa!)Genrealisations do not adequately portrait the indivindiaul who is made in God's image (evem Moslems and "secular hiumanists" and World Bankers)Next, the Bible condemns usury yet the Right tries to justify it. Is usury still a sin or should it be deleted from the Bible? Peace! Shalom!

May 10, 2007 12:31 AM

MrSmith said...

"The question given was then: "What are you a fundamntalist AGAINST?"Fundamentalism, like the USA, MUST have an enemy. If there is not an enemy then they'll invent one."

Claptrap. Fundamentalism is a belief in the essential importance of, guess what? Fundamentals. The question of it the essentials are true or false. Believing them to be true, fundamentalists brook no compromise on the topic. And that's that.

May 10, 2007 5:19 AM


Dee said...

> an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true > Christians at all.'

a) I disagree with his definition. I can be a fundamentalist who believes in the fundamental position that water freezes at a certain temperature which differs depending on whether you refer to fahrenheit or celcius. His definition is predictably narrow.I, however, am a fundamentalist who believes that the Bible is the Word of God and that those who don't are wrong. ....

May 10, 2007 7:49 PM

Moi said...

... Are fundamentalists REALLY the only Christians in the world? What happened to the orthert type of Christians before fundamentalism was founded in the mid 1800s???? (I hope you aren't seriously going to argue that the apostles and early Christians were fundamentalists ... a claim easily refuted. ead John Dominic Crossabn's "The Birth of Christianity")The mark of the Christian is love.Where is the love for fellow Christians who hold a different opinion on the Bible or Jesus or politics?Oh ... I forget ... they are not Trew Kristyuns because they are not fundamentalists. ;-)

... I have many fundamentalist friends. Not all of them think I'm going to be fried in Hell forever by their loving God for daring to have a different opinion as a Christian.

... Christians are allowed to question. Questioning produces change. That's why fundamentalists don't like questions and seek to censor them.All the above is relevent to the topic - economy.No one has yet answered whether the usury on which right-wing captitalism is built is still a sin (as stated in the Bible) or whether it is ok now because it is sanction by right-wing fundamentalists and their churches?Why can no one answer the question on usury?????Does asking this question invalidate my experience of God or my claim to be a Christian? How????


I'm sure, by now, I am the subject of many a prayer meeting for the "salvation" of my "secular humanist heretical" soul for asking such logical questions and daring to be a part of the New Reformation and an Exiled Believer. Maybe you can ask the prayer meetings about their views on both tithing and usury. This is central to any discussion on economy within the church.Waiting for an answer ... or will it just be placed in the "too hard basket"?

In our times, various ideologically dedicated groups increasingly usecensorship, coercion, or propaganda to limit access to ideas, literature,and the arts that they consider threatening. p.74

Censorship, the twin brother of propaganda, is the tool of despots, of ideologues, of ayatollahs, of fanatics. p.96

Franky Schaeffer "Sham Pearls For Real Swine" ( Wolgemuth & Hyatt; Brentwood:1990) Frank(y) Scaheffer is now a Greek Orthodox Christian. He left evangelicalism of his father, Francis A Schaeffer. The comment above was written about right-wing fundamentalists who attacked him and banned his books and art. Which political group censors debate, art, books, film, education? The left wing??? Nope! The RIGHT wing!!!

May 11, 2007 12:08 AM

Dee said...

.... Where is the love for fellow Christians who hold a different opinion on the Bible or Jesus or politics?

God's love is the most perfect of loves and yet He demands justice. Sin cannot be ignored.Your views are abhorrent to me and therefore I must defend truth. This has nothing to do with my feelings towards you as a human. I see you as deceived and this is a sorry state to be in

.... Who said you weren't allowed to question? You can question til the cows come home. At the end of the day, it's what you believe that counts and not whether or not you asked questions.


May 11, 2007 12:57 AM

MrSmith said...

Dee,This guy's either insane or a troll or both. In either case, it's pointless to try to engage him/her/it in rational discussion as s/he/it simply doesn't have the capacity.You know what they say:"Please do not feed the troll"

May 11, 2007 2:33 AM

Moi said...

Dee wrote:

>>from the responses that I read
>Again, just because you have read it doesn't make it so.

The responses from people on THIS blog who say I am "anti-christ", "heretic", "not a true Christian", "satanic", "secular humanist", "demonic", etc etc etc *[Now deleted so nobody can view them. ;-)] merely for having a different Christian viewpoint ... one that is compatible with many other Christians over the last 2000 years. I find that strange and demonstrating a lack of tolerance of other Christian beliefs.Are fundamentalists the ONLY Christians????

... I AM asking questions and posing philosophical and theological problems associated with such a belief.Fundamentalism didn't exist before the 1800s.

> I am a part of the Body of Christ which was founded during the lifetime of Christ.

So am I. Read Corinthians. Can the hand say it has no use for the little toe???? I may only be a little toe (perhaps ingrown and a nuisance) but I am still part of the body.


So why does the religious right ignore the Bible on topics such as usury and tithing? Are usury and the abuse of tithing no longer sins? I notice that these questions are not addressed. Why? They hit too close to home.


>> Certain violent and sexual video games and movies have been proven to affect
> vulnerable minds and lead to crime.

Er ... no. There is no conclusive evidence on this whatsoever. ... If so, the Bible should be R rated and not available to children as it contains some very graphic violence and sexual imagery ... dashing children's heads against rocks ... and rubbing dung in people's faces ...and those that "pisseth against the wall" (KJV) ....spilling "seed" on the ground ... not the type of thing a young child should read. (Would you like more examples? How many hundred????)Based on the above dislike of violence and sexual imagery then most of the great Christian artists over the past 200 years would be banned.Have you ever read the Christian author Rabelaise (French) who inspired the Christian author Jonathan Swift (English)? Both used the iumagery of a giant pissing on a fire in oreder to put it out. Donm't let your kids read the REAL Gulliver's Travels! Or listen to Mozart the nonChristian who was taught and inspired by "Papa" Hadyn - his mentor, FRIEND and Christian. (Mozart was far more talented.)The following extract comes from Vasari's "Lives of The Artists" (Translated by George Bull, Penguin; Middlesex, England: 1965; p. 379)


To return to the Last Judgement: Michelangelo had already finished more than three~fourths of the work when Pope Paul went to see it. On this occasion Biagio da Cesena, the master of ceremonies and a very high-minded person, happened to be with the Pope in the chapel and was asked what he thought of the painting. He answered that it was most disgraceful that in so sacred a place there should have been depicted all those nude figures, exposing themselves so shamefully, and that it was no work for a papal chapel but rather for the public baths and taverns. Angered by this comment, Michelangelo determined he would have his revenge; and as soon as Biagio had left he drew his portrait frorn memory in the figure of Minos, shown with a great serpent curled around his legs, among a heap of devils in hell; nor for all his pleading with the Pope and Michelangelo could Biagio have the figure removed, and it was left, to record the incident, as it is today.



Is it a Christian duty to censor art? Shouldn't boycotting be used before censorship? WHO decides what is "base garbage" and what is not? You may like to think about the Christian artworks that have been banned over the past 2000 years before answering.

> Next you'll be arguing that they should bring in some hard core porn to the school sex classes.

Nope. There is a difference bewteen art and porn (literally "pictures of prostitutes") though BOTH may have nudity and sexual acts depicted such as that in the famous Christian Rembrandt's drawing "The Great Bed" depicting a couple having sex in the missionary position .... though the woman has 3 arms (he forgot to erase one).I was accused of "pornography" for displaying Rembrandt's "Danae" to a group of Christian teachers in a seminar on Christian art. (It comntained a painted bare mammary gland.) Danae is a Greek myth which the great Christian artist deemed worthy to paint as he also did with "Raising The Cross" - placing himself as one who helped crucify Jesus was a result of his personal sin. BOTH paintings by Rembrandt are Christian.Rembrandt also drew lots of picturtes of people urinating (as was their want) in the public streets at a time when there was no sewerage system. Several of Rembrandt's paintings were banned. In one he depicted the local government council as Pharisees. In another he depicted the blinding of Samson in graphic blood, gore and guts detail. he also painted Tobit many times (from the Apocrypha but very popular with Christians of the day.)Would you ban Rembrandt from an art gallery?????Of course, the Song of Solomon has many erotic references and was almost not included in the Bible (except that some could read it as an allegory).Which group in Australian society most wish to see art banned? Care to answer ... or should I?Remember Tipper Gore and John Denver, Frank Zappa and Dee Synder???Or Fred Nile's WRONG appraisals of Peter Carey's "Oscar and Lucinda" and D H Lawrence's "Lady Chatterley's Lover" (two I can remember vividly from his TV appearances). He had obviously NEVER read the books or seen the films! "Oscar and Lucinda" DOESN'T have any suicide in it whatsoever and "Lady Chatterley's Lover" DOESN'T have an anal sex scene in it whatsoever. Yet it was on THESE reasons that he tried to have the films (and books) banned. How do I know? I own copies of both films and books!There are many other such absurd inaccuracies repeatedly stated by the Christian Coaltion / Fred Nile type groups about art.

May 11, 2007 3:01 AM

Moi said...

MrSmith said...

> This guy's either insane or a troll or both.

Why do you negate me merely for having a differenmyt opinion to yours?As Christian artist / musician / educator (30+ years K-12 & adult) I find your rabid intolerance quite strange.Where is the demonstration of your Christian love? Why must I be your clone in order to be a Christian? I forgive you.

May 11, 2007 3:05 AM

Dee said...

Moi, your vigor of debate cannot be questioned.I give up.You've wearied me and particularly as I perceive that by debating you I am getting nowhere.You are free to believe as you wish and I will believe as I wish.I don't mind a back and forth discussion and some disagreement but this is ridiculous. Our beliefs are clearly light years apart and you, as a free will agent have the right to believe as you wish.God bless you.*sigh*

May 11, 2007 3:21 AM

Moi said...

.... Why are fundamentalists INTOLERANT to other Christian viewpoints?Why do they fail to demonstrate love to their fellow Christians?Why do fundamentalists never discuss anything in depth but always stick to the shallows?


MrSmith said...

Playing Humpty Dumpty with definitions of things (your insane and intensely individualist definition of 'fundamentalism') is stupid on the mundane level, but it's damned stupid when you do it on the theological level (your insane and intensely individualistic definition of Christian), and runs the risk of being stupid and damned. I don't like your odds.As to being rabidly intolerant, I'll take that as a compliment. Tolerance, after all, has no place in Christianity.That's my last word on this thread. If you carry on here, you'll just be talking to yourself. Or, at the very least, not to me.

May 11, 2007 8:11 AM

Dee said...

As to being rabidly intolerant, I'll take that as a compliment. Tolerance, after all, has no place in Christianity.

That's the bottom line. God Himself doesn't 'tolerate'. To do so is akin to injustice. He forgives but only when those who commit the sin are actually sorry for doing it. Otherwise they suffer the consequences. Any other god who smiles indulgently while people rape, murder and pillage is not the God of the Bible. And if you don't believe the Bible, your god could be any capricious, tolerant Santa Claus figure.

May 11, 2007 2:40 PM

Moi said...

MrSmith said... > As to being rabidly intolerant, > I'll take that as a compliment. > Tolerance, after all, has no > place in Christianity.

It's called LOVE."By their fruits you shall know them."

May 11, 2007 6:01 PM

Moi said...

Dee wrote:

> Any other god *[referring to the Mopslpem Al-Lah] who smiles indulgently while people
> rape, murder and pillage is not the God of the Bible.

Have you read the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles lately? Has the God of the Bible ordered this pillaging and genocide including the killing of men, women, children and babies?

May 11, 2007 6:07 PM


Moi said...

Jews and Catholics can welcome a mosque in their local area but fundamentalists can't.Has anyone ever read the Koran right the way through? I have.Moslems worship the God of Abraham who is central to the faiths of Judaism., Christianity and Islam. Islam means surrender to this same God of Abraham.Not every moslem is a rabid terrorist who is going to blow up other people in the same way that not every Christian is a rabid creationist and rightwing fanatic.As U2 say (now all 4 members are Christians) - COEXIST.Fundamentalism is built on fear.Love casts out fear.How do Christians follow the second greatest commandment which says to love your neighbour - including your Moslem neighbour????Jesus spoke to the Samaritan.Think about it.

May 9, 2007 7:02 PM

Dee said...

Moi, how do Christians follow the commandment to love their neighbour?

We seek to advance the truth so that others may be saved.

What is the truth? Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life (not one of the many ways). There is no room for debate about that. Or should I say, you can debate it til you're blue in the face but when you stand before Christ, He'll simply say, I was right and you were wrong. Not everything is debatable (as Leftist, secular ideology would have you believe).

For those non-Muslims to fawn and grovel before the influx of Islam and say that it is a truth is not doing anyone any favours. However, those who are saying such things are not Christians and so can't be expected to see the uncompromising Truth, Who is Christ. If they were Christians, they would have to follow Christ. My point in the post is that one of them calls himself a Christian leader and the other should know better as he is one of a people who has been oppressed by this barbaric mindset. You need to get into the Conservative blogosphere a bit more and read some of the stuff people have dug up about Islam and you might realize that all you've read has been ideologically slanted in the moral relativist direction and could maybe, just maybe, be skewed. ...

May 9, 2007 7:33 PM


java said...

moi i can see that your a heretic , you dont follow the bible you scarely believe it, do us all a favour dont go around calling yourself a christian cause you're not one. its apparent to all who read your top it all off, you dont appear to be sure of what you believe in, but from what i can see it seems you're about a third muslim, a third protestant and a third atheist and completely off your rocker.too many drugs i think

May 10, 2007 5:16 AM


MrSmith said...

A good attempt, Moi, but a little too half-baked. Java makes an excellent point. It looks very much like you need to stop taking the pills, or increase your prescription, one of the two. ....

May 10, 2007 5:45 AM

Dee said...

... Once again since you do not believe the Bible, we effectively believe in two different gods/Gods. Yours is one built upon your own subjective opinion and ours is one built upon a rock which we have not tried to crush into little pieces.Therefore we are arguing about apples and oranges. Your 'god' could be saying anything or everything as he/she/it is subject to the whims of whatever you want to believe at a given time.

May 10, 2007 7:34 PM

Dee said...

Moi, we don't hate you because we argue with you but you have to understand that the people who come on here are passionate followers of Christ (at least I know for certain that Mr Smith is as he has been posting here for some time and very prolifically. I believe that Java is as well). We are also fighters, all of us. I'm a little restrained with you as I believe you are genuine. I'm usually a gutter rat and go for the throat. This is a day and age in history in which we can't afford to be sitting on fences twiddling our thumbs lovingly as the vicious secular, satanic zeitgeist sledgehammers everything that we hold precious to dust around us. God will hold us accountable for our silence. Jesus was proactive and not at all restrained when criticizing what He hated. Was it loving when He told His own disciple to 'Get behind me, Satan', some may say it wasn't. You, however, may believe or disbelieve that story as you clearly disbelieve most of the Bible. Really we can't find any common ground to even argue these things in the first place. You believe in a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

May 10, 2007 7:40 PM

MrSmith said...

Moi,Don't be more of an idiot than you can help. ... If you can't handle simple logic and discussion, I'm sure there's a daycare centre somewhere nearby where you can sit quietly in a corner.Dee,This guy's either insane or a troll or both. In either case, it's pointless to try to engage him/her/it in rational discussion as s/he/it simply doesn't have the capacity.You know what they say:"Please do not feed the troll"

May 11, 2007 2:35 AM

Moi said...

.... Why does having a differing opinion invalidate my status as a Christian?Why do you wish to CENSOR my comments?What are you AFRAID of?I forgive you.

Dee said...

Why do you wish to CENSOR my comments?

Moi, there is nothing wrong with censoring comments when they are nefarious by intent and wanting to tear down something that is constructive (as is the unthinking default position of the rabid left). I'm on the borderline as to your intentions and I've actually been advised by three people by email to ban you from this blog but I've deliberately allowed your comments as it gives us the opportunity to debate.

May 11, 2007 3:15 PM

Dee said...

Here is Moi's last comment with a personal comment about myself deleted *[I commented that Dee was intelligent and fiesty. THAT was delted. Why???] ....

Who is advocating censoring who?????Think about it.I'm for open debate in a free society.


You asked me to comment on your blog, so I have. That is my intention as a Christian educator and philosopher. Why would there be some "nefarious intent'??? Does this mean that one can only post on this blog if one fully agrees with the post???? Are you just looking for a pat on the back without any challenge??? I only write that which I seriously believe. I want to debate the topics not produce ad hominem attacks like some have done to me. They have refused to look at the topic but have personally attacked my character REPEATEDLY. I forgive them for Jesus said to forgive your enemies. ....

.NOT SO GOOD POINTS.- As I have mentioned before there is a lack of demnonstrated love for any Christian who takes a position outside of fundamentalist belief."By their fruits you shall know them." "Iron sharpens iron" yet it appears that opposing views or questioning are not welcome here. Without someone challenging our beliefs we never change.- The blog is very negative. The title suggests anger. The bible quote ignores that fact that the "spiritual warfare Paul was talking about was in the realm of philosophical ideas of the day. What ae the positive articles suggesting the road that should be taken? There are plenty of things wrong in the world and they are easily pointed out. What is the strategy for making the world better for all? If you could only state three sentences to sum up the action that needs to be taken to begin this process what would they be? Perhaps concentrating on "Good News" rather than "Bad News" would help.- What is your target audience? It would appear that it is only those of similar belief. If so, how are you going to change the minds of others without free debate on opposing views? Ad hominems in replies are not conducive to anyone returning to read your blog so all comments should be polite even if they people disagree with each other.- Related to the last point, how does one change the views of another? It is not by saying "You're wrong!" all the time but by producing dissonance in their belief system. This can be by asking questions and following the people's answers to their logical conclusion -(the Socratic method). One can look at the presuppositions being held by the other and produce different alternatives. None of that is happening on your blog and therefore change for anyone reading the blog is highly unlikely.

A final comment that you should seriously consider and pray about:

Peter Cameron "Fundamentalism and Freedom" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1995.)

They will be fearful in the face of any challenge to their security and brutal in their reaction; they will seek to bolster their security by persuading others of its validity.; and those others will be persuaded because of their own increasing sense of insecurity in the modern world. ... Fundamentalists need an enemy; an enemy both gives them their own identity and unites them. ...they stand for nothing positive at all - simply obedience to rules and the condemnation of those who break them. ... it is a religion of fear which proceeds by intimidation.... Fundamentalism ... thrives on protective stupidity. ... fear in the face of any challenge to the status quo; ... brutality in suppressing dissent; p. 10 ff

Who is advocating censoring who?????

Think about it.

"By their fruits you shall know them."

May 12, 2007 12:30 AM

Dee said...

Moi, as I said, I am allowing free commenting on my blog as I haven't a problem with debate.

The problem with a lot of your posts is that they're attacking the very foundations of the Body of Christ. You come across as anti and virulent in your attacks, much as an unbeliever would. I can't judge you as I can't see your heart, only God can do that, but your opposition and forceful criticisms of most of the Church and lack of criticism of every enemy the Church has (for example, are you aware that Muslims are hounding and brutally murdering Christians in many parts of the world and you praise them up one side and down the other while attacking Christians for all and sundry reasons): pro-Muslim, pro-homosexual (another virulent enemy of Christians, just go to their websites), pro-Marxists (just look at the persecution of Christians that have occurred in the two Marxist experiments gone mad, USSR and PRC) in fact, almost all enemies of Christ, you praise and all dynamic expressions of the Body of Christ which have moved beyond empty liturgy and dusty theology, you appear to hate to distraction. In light of all that, it's difficult to see you as anything other than an enemy of Christ. I like you as a person, you're interesting, light and witty in person. I'm just amazed that I had no idea that all this stuff was under the surface.

May 12, 2007 12:46 AM

Dee said...

... Moi is a person who has allowed negative events and false information to drag him into a state of unbelief. I have a friend living in Queensland who, after one year of being bashed over the head by anti-American and Marxist dogma has swallowed it hook, line and sinker. She's disillusioned, stopped going to church and is sleeping around. If you don't really hold to what you believe, those lies will destroy you.

May 12, 2007 2:48 AM


Dee said...

Should science not be taught to a child in a public school because the parents believe in the pseudo-science of creationism? Does the parent's belief outweigh the harm done to the child's education

You are again judging from the position of an unbeliever therefore we must agree to disagree once again. You are actually anti-Christian though you profess to be a Christian. You deny almost everything right from the get go. There is little you do believe.

May 10, 2007 7:18 PM

Dee said...

As an educator (K-12 & adults) for over 30 years I wouldn't touch their material with a 10 pole. *[referencing Pensacola Chrisian Academy (A Beka books), Bob Jones University, Answers in Genesis material.]

Precisely why many Christians are alarmed about putting their children into the hands of the educators in the public school system. I know of only one good one (very high up and a huge threat to the satanists and Leftists in the system) and she's hounded by the many that are like yourself.

May 10, 2007 7:20 PM

MK said...

The day Americans burn the ACLU down and put the lot of those parasitical self-loathing America-haters on the first boat out will be a good day.That organizations only goal is to tear that country apart with their leftist ideology, they don't care what the American people think or want, and they just want to rule that country with their own brand of vile ideology. ...

May 10, 2007 7:37 PM

Dee said...

MK, you've got my two points exactly. 1) Freedom of speech...the ACLU is an abominable destroyer of personal liberties and needs to be 'burnt down' as you said. ...

May 10, 2007 7:55 PM

Moi said...

> You are again judging from the position of an unbeliever

Er I'm arguing from the standpoint of truth as an educated intelligent Christian. Both the Catholic and Anglican churches have spoken out against creationist pseudo-science. Are all Catholics and Anglicans "unbelievers"?

> You are actually anti-Christian

Disagreeing with a position does not invalidate one's Christianity.


Fundamentalists are not the ONLY Christians in the world.

May 10, 2007 9:16 PM

Dee said...

... I also don't give a hoot about 'modern methods of theology' or whatever. I've heard their pompous theological crap and they can blow it out their backsides. If they can't show a passion for CHrist and a bit of garden variety faith, as far as I'm concerned, they're Pharisees; worshiping their own hollow rhetoric.

May 11, 2007 12:00 AM

Dee said...

.... An education means nothing. ....

Are all Catholics and Anglicans 'unbelievers'?

No, only the ones who don't believe. *[As fundamentalists do!]

May 11, 2007 12:04 AM

MrSmith said...

.... (Remind me someone, why did we stop burning people at the stake?)

May 11, 2007 2:26 AM

MrSmith said...

Do try to pay attention, child. ... As to Karen Armstrong, we're talking here about the woman who attacked Robert Spencer's writings on Islam and claimed Islam is really a religion of peace and civilisation. Your source is massively lacking in authority and soundness.

May 11, 2007 3:41 AM

Moi said...

...> As to Karen Armstrong, we're talking here about the woman who attacked Robert Spencer's > writings on Islam and claimed Islam is really a religion of peace and civilisation.

She is absolutely correct.Why are you so full of hate towards Islam?Have you ever read the Koran from beginning to end? I have.My copy of the Koran is translated by N J Dalwood (Penguin 1956)


Be courteous when you argue with people of the Book ... Our God and your God is One. To him we surrender ourselves.The Spider 29:41 p. 199(Maybe you can learn from that.)

If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men. Repentance 9:4 p. 321

Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabeans - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothiung to fear or to regret. The Cow 2:61 p. 338

Many of the people of the Book wish, through envy, to lead you back to unblief, now that you have embraced the faith and the truth has been made plain to them. Forgive them and bear with them until Allah makes known his will. He has power over all things. The Cow 2:107 p. 343

Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors. The Cow 2:190 p. 352There shall be no compulsion in relifgion. The Cow 2:56 p. 361 (You might also learn from this.)

If the people of the Book accept the true faith and keep from evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the gardens of delight. If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is revealed to them by Allah, they shall be given abundance from above and from beneath. The table 5:66 pp. 394-395

May 11, 2007 4:16 AM

MrSmith said...

For a so-called Christian, you're doing amazing work as a moslem apologist. I'll drop my levels of dislike for Islam when they return Anatolia, Jerusalem, get out of Europe completely, and stop spreading lies about rape and murder being acceptable. ...

May 11, 2007 5:06 AM


Dee said...

It's indefensible to defend those who behave as the rest of the world behaved five thousand years ago in this day and age. Nobody cuts off hands, stones rape victims or beheads live victims, not to mention the horrific genital mutilations, all Qu'ran sanctioned. To argue for this barbaric belief system is to be either disingenuous or deluded.

May 11, 2007 6:00 AM


Dee said...

.... Last election in Australia, Christians prayed and we got John Howard. Thank God for that. ...


Comment deleted
This post has been removed by the blog administrator.

May 12, 2007 7:34 PM

Dee said...

Anyone can make a comment there without censorship.As they can here, Moi. You've had the liberty to say reams almost all of which contradicted the spirit of this blog.I'm not surprised that you disagree with the writer of the source post (or is it Gramsci himself you disagree with?)This is not the only person who has linked to and commented on the writings and intentions of Gramsci. I read another very good article on Gramsci several weeks ago. However, these writings are useless to you though you praise the value of 'education'. It's only the education which will win you the praise of the academic system of the ruling hegemony. You will certainly disagree with anything which contradicts your chosen belief system.

May 12, 2007 11:44 PM

The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but they are mighty to the pulling down of strongholds.
Sunday, May 13, 2007

A Conservative blogger in Finland has sent a cry for help to Prodos, an Aussie blogger. It seems he is in trouble with the police and is in danger of having criminal charges laid against him for criticizing Islam.
I am writing to you because I received a letter from the municipal police department saying they want to interrogate me because of the anti-Muslim, pro-Israeli, pro-European, pro-American posts in my blog.According to the letter, I am suspected of “hate speech” merely because I have pointed out that Islam is a fascist ideology that advocates killing Jews, atheists, homosexuals etc. ....

The main point that I have been trying to make in my blog is that the Muslims ARE fascists who want to kill Jews, atheists, homosexuals, etc. Trying to prosecute me for saying that Islam is a totalitarian ideology is like trying to sue someone for saying Hitler was a NaziThis is the dying embers of our freedom. Finland is supposed to be a free Western country. Hate crime legislation is being sneaked in in almost every developed country now. Here is a glimpse of our future under the draconian New World OrderSOURCE

Posted by Dee at 4:25 AM

Sunday, May 13, 2007


To this blog's visitors. I have had to introduce comment moderation due to a very persistent troll who became somewhat menacing in his tone. I will publish anyone who wishes to have some honest debate as long as they do not become abusive and threatening.This will not affect you as I visit my blog several times a day and will publish almost everybody whether you agree with me or not (apart from the above-mentioned type of post).


I dared to point out to Dee that inciting people to racial and religious hatred is a crime in Australia and also a sin for Christians who worship the God of love and follow the Prince of Peace.

Furthermore I pointed out about the Blog Flag on the top of every Blog page. I quote:

Special Case for Hate Speech

When the community has voted and hate speech is identified on Blog*Spot, Google may exercise its right to place a Content Warning page in front of the blog and set it to "unlisted."


For these comments the following was posted.

Sunday, May 13, 2007COMMENT MODERATION

To this blog's visitors. I have had to introduce comment moderation due to a very persistent troll who became somewhat menacing in his tone. I will publish anyone who wishes to have some honest debate as long as they do not become abusive and threatening.This will not affect you as I visit my blog several times a day and will publish almost everybody whether you agree with me or not (apart from the above-mentioned type of post).


QUE???? "Persistent troll"??? "Menacing tone"???? "Abusive and threatening"???


I will be posting my comments about that blog here in future. No censorship. No editing.

Look out for more comments on various FUNDAMENTALIST RIGHT WING HATE BLOGS here.